I posted this on the Roadmap thread but feel it is equally relevant here:
Most people will prefer using their own assets on programs they already use, I would still use Illustrator/Photoshop for my artwork and create my sounds in my studio, even if GS has image/sound composition etc.
As for the iPad's image and sound editing and creation, there are a lot of great apps that can do that, especially sound creation, there are great synths and DAW's.
It would just be great to edit on the move, although I use my air for that.
I doubt though that this is their intent, I reckon the whole HTML 5 thing is a possibility though. The whole Rocket Engine and GS being connected with investors/parent companies ties this in, especially because (and correct me if I'm wrong, I only looked at the Rocket Engine site briefly) there doesn't look like there is an engine available, there are pictures of it but no links to use it/information about it. Could be that it's contracted to GS?
I hope it allows the game player to have a game displayed on the iPad and the iPhone/iPod Touch as a controller. Or control a Mac game with iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch. Or use Airplay.
Valan said: I hope it allows the game player to have a game displayed on the iPad and the iPhone/iPod Touch as a controller. Or control a Mac game with iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch. Or use Airplay.
Just fantasizing.
Valan
Don't think, it's an industry changer.
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
imGua said: Don't think, it's an industry changer.
Yep you can already use mobile devices as controllers for their respective console systems so I don't think iphone as controller would be a melt your face game changer.
Another thing I just read in an article is that Disney are really hush hush on details regarding the buy out of RocketPack. They acknowledge the buy but won't comment on any details. Steve's background in Disney projects... Could be?
Although it could be bugger all to do with it haha
quantumsheep said: Can you enlighten me as to why html5 would be a game changer?
I'm genuinely curious here, not being facetious - would like to know why you think it would be!
Steve is a CEO. That means his main job is directing the company to profit — MAKING MONEY.
By introducing web based editing (and GameSalad projects are basically game assets and XML files, so the conversion shouldn't be too hard) GameSalad can be on the PC. It also makes it easier to include Android. The primary goal has been stated... GameSalad wants everyone to make games. Not everyone has a Mac... it's only like 10% out of computer users. So, if GameSalad wants to quickly reach the other 90%, a cloud-based system makes sense.
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
quantumsheep said: Can you enlighten me as to why html5 would be a game changer?
I'm genuinely curious here, not being facetious - would like to know why you think it would be!
Cheers,
QS
I think it would be a game changer because HTML5 is as understand it the replacement of flash. so essentially GameSalad will be moving in to take the place flash game development because now its easier to do HTML5 which is supposed to be better and supported by more platforms or browsers. If Game Salad is able to launch a drag and drop HTML5 editor they will be positioning themselves for no-code Game Creation on almost any platform out there. I bet even console systems can run HTML5 mini game type stuff. And really the major game Changer will be that its launched overnight with no one prepared to market against it.
Of course except for the fact that people couldn't leave it alone and wait for the announcement so now if it is HTML5 the competition has a heads up on the possibility
Also like quantum sheep I'd like to know why HTML 5 would be a game changer?
We could make games that go on the web? Outside of the app store? How do you make your money? Adverts a different app store?
I guess you could make games, that can be put straight into any website that can then be played by all devices, iPads, androids, pcs all without any plugin needed.
tenrdrmer said: Of course except for the fact that people couldn't leave it alone and wait for the announcement so now if it is HTML5 the competition has a heads up on the possibility
1 - They should work faster then! If I can figure this stuff out, so can the competition.
2 - If GameSalad does move into an HTML 5 engine, that doesn't make it a Flash replacement. If the games can be exported to HTML 5, then that...
...it...
...the world dramatically changes.
• Between Pixelmator and GameSalad, Adobe stock would likely drop. (Did you see the latest Adobe stupidity?!) • Programmers / Web Developers become less important, making it even harder to have a career in Information Technology. (Programs like Artisteer already make web development a joke of a profession.) • The app development bubble would burst, as there would be so much content... much of it the same... could be like the video game crash of the 1980s.
It's a wave, I'm glad I'm surfing ahead of it. But when this wave crashes, the money-making opportunity goes with it.
It's like this... people used to be farmers, but that was replaced by the industrial revolution. So, people worked in manufacturing, but that was replaced by robots and cheaper labor. So, people tried to be creative by making apps and websites, but that's not going to be valuable much longer either... not with such a low barrier to entry.
You're either going to be in the top 1% or you're going to be crushed in a sea of mediocrity... replaced by automation and simplification.
What matters anymore? What can a human do that matters?
Artistic ability? Meaningless... art is cheap. Programming? GameSalad is killing that! Hard work and determination? Robots beat humans.
While this seems cool now, it shows me how tiny of a window exists for success. It's another bubble. If you think it's hard to get your games noticed now, imagine when the other 90% get a hold of GameSalad.
Photics' first post on this thread sounds like a pretty good guess.
When html 5 becomes widespread (20012/2013?) it will be great if you can make a game ONCE with one engine and port it to almost any platform in no time at all. So it would make sense for gamesalad to go in that direction.
At the moment someone might have a flash game for online browser play, then port it to ios, then port it to android. What a pain in the ass that must be!
To answer QS: html 5 games are playable in your web browser without the need to download or install additional plugins. So that means anyone with internet access on any platform( I think) will be able to play your games.
The video on the rocketengine site was pretty interesting.
Of course except for the fact that people couldn't leave it alone and wait for the announcement so now if it is HTML5 the competition has a heads up on the possibility
Lol, if us as Game Designers are speculating, I doubt that is giving a heads up to the competition, if we can speculate it, I'm sure huge teams of developers out there can too
Photics, you are forgetting one tiny thing. Most people don't want to (or can't be bothered to) spend a lot of time and effort to create and FINISH a polished product. Of any kind.
The winners in all of this will be the hard working people with good creative talent who can make the right game at the right time...
shaz said: The winners in all of this will be the hard working people with good creative talent who can make the right game at the right time...
(I hope I'll be one of them soon!)
Hard work matters now, but for how long?
True, a lot of people can't be bothered to create a video game. Passion for the industry matters, but there are so many people that love video games. Right now, the majority of the world misunderstands GameSalad. They look down on it, like something you accidentally stepped in. But if the team actually delivers what's on the road map, that's too many features to ignore. If PC/Web development - through HTML 5 - is the idea behind Project Masala, that changes things.
Right now, if 1 out of 1000 developers are really good... you're up against 50 other GameSalad developers. Some are on the same team, so that's like 10-20 people. But if millions of people are starting to use the software... that's thousands of additional competitors — in addition to the thousands already on the app stores.
Then, if these games start appearing for free in HTML 5 code, it could break the app stores. Why pay for apps if you can play the same games online? Is paying 99¢ for games the new standard or will it regress back into free flash game mode? Mobile phones are only going to get better. How long will people be willing to take a chance on independent developers?
I think GameSalad game development is going to get really good, and then really bad. If the goal is really to let the entire world make games, what happens if GameSalad reaches that goal?
It's supply and demand. The supply of games is only going to increase. Is the demand going to rise to meet that?
Things won't go in one direction. They'll continue to go in multiple directions like they do now. And some new ones too I'm sure.
And apple seem too good at making money. They probably had a strategy planned to deal with HTML 5 ages ago.
In terms of gamesalad games - well there would be a huge increase in the non-pro games with the GS splash screen. And if the majority are of bad/mediocre quality the GS rep would get worse. But then thats more incentive for people to upgrade for a custom splash screen. So more more revenue for GS.
I'm not old enough to remember the Atari days crash, but a big difference now is access to information. You can see the most popular games at a glance. Or decide for yourself from review sites.
Ok, a zillion crappy games come out that are cheap or free. But who's gonna play them when no one is talking about them? They'll just be ignored like thousands of games on the appstore already are.
To answer QS: html 5 games are playable in your web browser without the need to download or install additional plugins. So that means anyone with internet access on any platform( I think) will be able to play your games.
That actually sounds pretty good - you could, theoretically, make lite versions of your IOS games and put them anywhere, right? And not have to worry about just making a demo that Apple don't like the sound of.
Then, if these games start appearing for free in HTML 5 code, it could break the app stores. Why pay for apps if you can play the same games online? Is paying 99¢ for games the new standard or will it regress back into free flash game mode? Mobile phones are only going to get better. How long will people be willing to take a chance on independent developers?
I think GameSalad game development is going to get really good, and then really bad. If the goal is really to let the entire world make games, what happens if GameSalad reaches that goal?
It's supply and demand. The supply of games is only going to increase. Is the demand going to rise to meet that?
As Shaz says, anyone with Internet access can play an html5 game. You have to consider the format - a mobile phone. The 'mobile' part being most important.
So I think people will pay out of convenience. I'd be annoyed if I couldn't play a game because I was using the underground. Or even at my cousin's house, which has really bad reception for my phone - totally disconnected.
Here's a real-world example:
*Canabalt was released on iphone for considerably more than $.99
*There was a free flash version of the game available online. This was the FULL game.
*People paid for the iphone version - almost as a 'tax' - so they could play that flash game anywhere at all.
*Granted, flash doesn't work on an iphone. But it was a canny marketing move that worked.
I think you're over reacting. GameSalad lets kids make iphone games. That's awesome! But not every game sells because the competition is great on the app store.
You shouldn't be afraid of competition. It should push you to make better games!
Anyway, this is all speculation till they announce something I guess!
quantumsheep said: I think you're over reacting. GameSalad lets kids make iphone games. That's awesome! But not every game sells because the competition is great on the app store.
You shouldn't be afraid of competition. It should push you to make better games!
I think it's great that GameSalad lets kids make games. But a good look at this community shows it's not just kids.
I don't think it's an over reaction. Is this an anomaly or the norm? As more and more people get into app development, how many people can be successful at it? I think this is a special moment in game development.
I'm working really hard on my game. The only way it could be better is if I expanded the budget by thousands of dollars and made it 3D. At that level of complexity, it would mean additional people would have to be hired. That's a big risk for an independent developer... a risk most independent developers can't take. So, as the games grow more complex... and as more and more developers fight to climb the ranks of the app stores... the chance of disappointment and failure increases. It's not just a matter of doing better.
It's a gold rush. As history shows, the real winners of the California gold rush were shovel makers, not the diggers. GameSalad is a shovel maker.
quantumsheep said: You're confusing 'complex' with 'fun'.
Ha, I think you're confusing "fun" with "expensive"
The industry is going to grow. Can I grow with it? I think it is fun to be so successful at this that people have to be hired / jobs have to be created. I have considered the possibility that BOT could grow into a franchise, where the sequel is done in Unity3D. That's why I mention the small window of opportunity.
To hire an animator and programmer for one year is roughly $100,000. That's a huge investment for a small team. I've read lots of stories about the failed MMORPGs out there. I don't want to build the next Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault.
The alternative is to learn Unity3D myself. I think that is an area where I could improve my skills. If everyone else and their grandmother can make 2D games, I think going 3D is a good way to stay competitive.
The alternative is to learn Unity3D myself. I think that is an area where I could improve my skills. If everyone else and their grandmother can make 2D games, I think going 3D is a good way to stay competitive.
Err... ok I think you're missing the whole point of the appstore if you really think that.
Have you got finished games on itunes already? From the way you talk about this Bot thing, your must already be good at game design and have some good apps up there?
3D does not have to be extremely complicated. Visual scripting seems to be very popular these days. There has the last 6 months popped up 3 Visual scripting plugins for unity Pic form the latest one: http://www.detoxstudios.com/linkimages/kismet_compare_sm.png
shaz said: Have you got finished games on itunes already? From the way you talk about this Bot thing, your must already be good at game design and have some good apps up there?
Last year, my big project was The Unofficial GameSalad Textbook. This year, it's BOT. I've set out to build a game for hardcore gamers. I've set out to push GameSalad to the limit.
The games I have on the iTunes store already are no where near the level of BOT. This is quite possibly my best Photics.com project ever. The business was started over 13 years ago, so those are bold words. I keep seeing words like, "Work harder". Well, BOT is going to be the ultimate litmus test of that. I've already been working on this for months.
shaz said: Err... ok I think you're missing the whole point of the appstore if you really think that.
When I look at the app store, I usually see Angry Birds perched on top. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. HA HA.
dhondon said: 3D does not have to be extremely complicated. Visual scripting seems to be very popular these days. There has the last 6 months popped up 3 Visual scripting plugins for unity Pic form the latest one: http://www.detoxstudios.com/linkimages/kismet_compare_sm.png
Cool, maybe I should check out Unity3D and the new add-ons after I'm done with BOT.
Personally I've chosen to start with a really simple concept and just try and do it really well and keep sculpting it until its fun, engaging and informative (it has an educational aspect)
IMO Angry Birds is a very well crafted game. As is tiny wings. And cut the rope. The iphone is not a ps3. Infinity Blade, the flashiest looking iphone game so far did very well initially but has since dropped down the charts. Yet those bite sized 2d games manage to stay at the top...
Personally I've chosen to start with a really simple concept and just try and do it really well and keep sculpting it until its fun, engaging and informative (it has an educational aspect)
IMO Angry Birds is a very well crafted game. As is tiny wings. And cut the rope. The iphone is not a ps3. Infinity Blade, the flashiest looking iphone game so far did very well initially but has since dropped down the charts. Yet those bite sized 2d games manage to stay at the top...
+1
If you really wanna have great success in the app store (missing out marketing and what not) you need a simple game mechanic that players can explore with and beautiful graphics.
Photics said: When I look at the app store, I usually see Angry Birds perched on top. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. HA HA.
Why? It's the perfect iOS game, although iOS is becoming more of a serious gaming platform with the iPad 2 and the iPhone 5's graphic and processing power, still 99% of iPad and iPhone users want a game that's simple to play and get in to, just pick up and play simplicity, that's why Angry Birds, Doodle Jump, Cut the Rope etc are always in the top 25. Sure, Infinity Blade did well initially but dropped off, I think the top 25 shows perfectly the demographic of iOS users.
• The sound effects are annoying. • The music is terrible. • There's not a lot of depth to the game. (It's basically bowling.) • Rovio has gotten spammy, with advertisements in a paid app. • There are too many versions of the same basic game.
I enjoyed playing Angry Birds, as it was challenging to get three stars on all the levels. But eventually, I beat all the levels. When the most recent update appeared, I started not to care anymore. After 200+ levels of the same repetitive nonsense, the novelty wore off. The Rovio News option (translation: spam) ruined the app for me. I don't think Angry Birds is at the same level of other classic video games...
Pac Man - I think Championship Edition DX is a much better game than Angry Birds. Super Mario Bros - If Nintendo was making iOS games, would Rovio be #1? No! Mega Man 2 - Good music, great graphics for the system, great challenge
Those are quality games to me. Angry Birds is like a fad, the Cabbage Patch Kids doll of this generation.
Comments
Most people will prefer using their own assets on programs they already use, I would still use Illustrator/Photoshop for my artwork and create my sounds in my studio, even if GS has image/sound composition etc.
As for the iPad's image and sound editing and creation, there are a lot of great apps that can do that, especially sound creation, there are great synths and DAW's.
It would just be great to edit on the move, although I use my air for that.
I doubt though that this is their intent, I reckon the whole HTML 5 thing is a possibility though. The whole Rocket Engine and GS being connected with investors/parent companies ties this in, especially because (and correct me if I'm wrong, I only looked at the Rocket Engine site briefly) there doesn't look like there is an engine available, there are pictures of it but no links to use it/information about it. Could be that it's contracted to GS?
Online GS anyone?
Ace
Just fantasizing.
Valan
Although it could be bugger all to do with it haha
Ace
I'm genuinely curious here, not being facetious - would like to know why you think it would be!
Cheers,
QS
But, there were smart phones before the iPhone.
By introducing web based editing (and GameSalad projects are basically game assets and XML files, so the conversion shouldn't be too hard) GameSalad can be on the PC. It also makes it easier to include Android. The primary goal has been stated... GameSalad wants everyone to make games. Not everyone has a Mac... it's only like 10% out of computer users. So, if GameSalad wants to quickly reach the other 90%, a cloud-based system makes sense.
Of course except for the fact that people couldn't leave it alone and wait for the announcement so now if it is HTML5 the competition has a heads up on the possibility
We could make games that go on the web? Outside of the app store? How do you make your money? Adverts a different app store?
I guess you could make games, that can be put straight into any website that can then be played by all devices, iPads, androids, pcs all without any plugin needed.
2 - If GameSalad does move into an HTML 5 engine, that doesn't make it a Flash replacement. If the games can be exported to HTML 5, then that...
...it...
...the world dramatically changes.
• Between Pixelmator and GameSalad, Adobe stock would likely drop.
(Did you see the latest Adobe stupidity?!)
• Programmers / Web Developers become less important, making it even harder to have a career in Information Technology. (Programs like Artisteer already make web development a joke of a profession.)
• The app development bubble would burst, as there would be so much content... much of it the same... could be like the video game crash of the 1980s.
It's a wave, I'm glad I'm surfing ahead of it. But when this wave crashes, the money-making opportunity goes with it.
It's like this... people used to be farmers, but that was replaced by the industrial revolution. So, people worked in manufacturing, but that was replaced by robots and cheaper labor. So, people tried to be creative by making apps and websites, but that's not going to be valuable much longer either... not with such a low barrier to entry.
You're either going to be in the top 1% or you're going to be crushed in a sea of mediocrity... replaced by automation and simplification.
What matters anymore? What can a human do that matters?
Artistic ability? Meaningless... art is cheap.
Programming? GameSalad is killing that!
Hard work and determination? Robots beat humans.
While this seems cool now, it shows me how tiny of a window exists for success. It's another bubble. If you think it's hard to get your games noticed now, imagine when the other 90% get a hold of GameSalad.
When html 5 becomes widespread (20012/2013?) it will be great if you can make a game ONCE with one engine and port it to almost any platform in no time at all. So it would make sense for gamesalad to go in that direction.
At the moment someone might have a flash game for online browser play, then port it to ios, then port it to android. What a pain in the ass that must be!
To answer QS: html 5 games are playable in your web browser without the need to download or install additional plugins. So that means anyone with internet access on any platform( I think) will be able to play your games.
The video on the rocketengine site was pretty interesting.
Lol, if us as Game Designers are speculating, I doubt that is giving a heads up to the competition, if we can speculate it, I'm sure huge teams of developers out there can too
Ace
The winners in all of this will be the hard working people with good creative talent who can make the right game at the right time...
(I hope I'll be one of them soon!)
True, a lot of people can't be bothered to create a video game. Passion for the industry matters, but there are so many people that love video games. Right now, the majority of the world misunderstands GameSalad. They look down on it, like something you accidentally stepped in. But if the team actually delivers what's on the road map, that's too many features to ignore. If PC/Web development - through HTML 5 - is the idea behind Project Masala, that changes things.
Right now, if 1 out of 1000 developers are really good... you're up against 50 other GameSalad developers. Some are on the same team, so that's like 10-20 people. But if millions of people are starting to use the software... that's thousands of additional competitors — in addition to the thousands already on the app stores.
Then, if these games start appearing for free in HTML 5 code, it could break the app stores. Why pay for apps if you can play the same games online? Is paying 99¢ for games the new standard or will it regress back into free flash game mode? Mobile phones are only going to get better. How long will people be willing to take a chance on independent developers?
I think GameSalad game development is going to get really good, and then really bad. If the goal is really to let the entire world make games, what happens if GameSalad reaches that goal?
It's supply and demand. The supply of games is only going to increase. Is the demand going to rise to meet that?
And apple seem too good at making money. They probably had a strategy planned to deal with HTML 5 ages ago.
In terms of gamesalad games - well there would be a huge increase in the non-pro games with the GS splash screen. And if the majority are of bad/mediocre quality the GS rep would get worse. But then thats more incentive for people to upgrade for a custom splash screen. So more more revenue for GS.
I'm not old enough to remember the Atari days crash, but a big difference now is access to information. You can see the most popular games at a glance. Or decide for yourself from review sites.
Ok, a zillion crappy games come out that are cheap or free. But who's gonna play them when no one is talking about them? They'll just be ignored like thousands of games on the appstore already are.
Interesting. As Shaz says, anyone with Internet access can play an html5 game. You have to consider the format - a mobile phone. The 'mobile' part being most important.
So I think people will pay out of convenience. I'd be annoyed if I couldn't play a game because I was using the underground. Or even at my cousin's house, which has really bad reception for my phone - totally disconnected.
Here's a real-world example:
*Canabalt was released on iphone for considerably more than $.99
*There was a free flash version of the game available online. This was the FULL game.
*People paid for the iphone version - almost as a 'tax' - so they could play that flash game anywhere at all.
*Granted, flash doesn't work on an iphone. But it was a canny marketing move that worked.
I think you're over reacting. GameSalad lets kids make iphone games. That's awesome! But not every game sells because the competition is great on the app store.
You shouldn't be afraid of competition. It should push you to make better games!
Anyway, this is all speculation till they announce something I guess!
QS
I don't think it's an over reaction. Is this an anomaly or the norm? As more and more people get into app development, how many people can be successful at it? I think this is a special moment in game development.
I'm working really hard on my game. The only way it could be better is if I expanded the budget by thousands of dollars and made it 3D. At that level of complexity, it would mean additional people would have to be hired. That's a big risk for an independent developer... a risk most independent developers can't take. So, as the games grow more complex... and as more and more developers fight to climb the ranks of the app stores... the chance of disappointment and failure increases. It's not just a matter of doing better.
It's a gold rush. As history shows, the real winners of the California gold rush were shovel makers, not the diggers. GameSalad is a shovel maker.
QS
Yee-hah!
The industry is going to grow. Can I grow with it? I think it is fun to be so successful at this that people have to be hired / jobs have to be created. I have considered the possibility that BOT could grow into a franchise, where the sequel is done in Unity3D. That's why I mention the small window of opportunity.
To hire an animator and programmer for one year is roughly $100,000. That's a huge investment for a small team. I've read lots of stories about the failed MMORPGs out there. I don't want to build the next Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault.
The alternative is to learn Unity3D myself. I think that is an area where I could improve my skills. If everyone else and their grandmother can make 2D games, I think going 3D is a good way to stay competitive.
Have you got finished games on itunes already? From the way you talk about this Bot thing, your must already be good at game design and have some good apps up there?
The games I have on the iTunes store already are no where near the level of BOT. This is quite possibly my best Photics.com project ever. The business was started over 13 years ago, so those are bold words. I keep seeing words like, "Work harder". Well, BOT is going to be the ultimate litmus test of that. I've already been working on this for months. When I look at the app store, I usually see Angry Birds perched on top. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. HA HA. Cool, maybe I should check out Unity3D and the new add-ons after I'm done with BOT.
Personally I've chosen to start with a really simple concept and just try and do it really well and keep sculpting it until its fun, engaging and informative (it has an educational aspect)
IMO Angry Birds is a very well crafted game. As is tiny wings. And cut the rope. The iphone is not a ps3. Infinity Blade, the flashiest looking iphone game so far did very well initially but has since dropped down the charts. Yet those bite sized 2d games manage to stay at the top...
If you really wanna have great success in the app store (missing out marketing and what not) you need a simple game mechanic that players can explore with and beautiful graphics.
Ace
• The music is terrible.
• There's not a lot of depth to the game. (It's basically bowling.)
• Rovio has gotten spammy, with advertisements in a paid app.
• There are too many versions of the same basic game.
I enjoyed playing Angry Birds, as it was challenging to get three stars on all the levels. But eventually, I beat all the levels. When the most recent update appeared, I started not to care anymore. After 200+ levels of the same repetitive nonsense, the novelty wore off. The Rovio News option (translation: spam) ruined the app for me. I don't think Angry Birds is at the same level of other classic video games...
Pac Man - I think Championship Edition DX is a much better game than Angry Birds.
Super Mario Bros - If Nintendo was making iOS games, would Rovio be #1? No!
Mega Man 2 - Good music, great graphics for the system, great challenge
Those are quality games to me. Angry Birds is like a fad, the Cabbage Patch Kids doll of this generation.